Meeting with reporters for a year-end press conference far earlier than either man would have hoped or envisioned, Dave Dombrowski and Rob Thomson spoke separately for nearly an hour and a half Tuesday afternoon about what went wrong and how the Phillies can go about fixing it.
There weren't many specifics with regards to free agency or trades — no surprise there or need for Dombrowski to tip his hand in any direction.
It's obvious, though, where the Phillies will look first to upgrade.
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"Our outfield, all in all, turned out to be very average at the big-league level," Dombrowski said. "We have one guy that plays every day, (Nick) Castellanos. We like (Brandon) Marsh still, we think he's a good player. We like (Johan) Rojas but we need offensive improvement from him. We have a plan this winter, he's going to live in Clearwater. We have a plan for him from an offensive perspective. But I can't say he's going to be for sure our center fielder.
"We have (Austin) Hays, of course. We'll have to make a decision in that regard. I'm not sure how it will be but I think a couple guys that for sure are a part of that are Marsh and Castellanos and then we take it from there."
Hays was the Phillies' lone offensive addition at the trade deadline. He had a strong track record against left-handed pitching and the Phils saw him as, at worst, a viable platoon option and at best, an everyday player.
It never materialized because of a hamstring strain in early August and a kidney infection that cost him ample time late in the season. He was never the best version of himself as a Phillie.
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Hays made $6.3 million last season and 2025 is his last arbitration-eligible year. He'd likely be looking at a salary in the $6.5-7 million range and given the upgrades the Phillies want to make, might be a cut.
In speaking about adjustments and lessons, Dombrowski brought up his own moves at the trade deadline, specifically acquiring Hays after he'd fallen out of favor in Baltimore.
"Sometimes you have to make adjustments to things and be open-minded to it. I know for myself, you ask about the trade deadline, for me, it really hurts that Austin Hays didn't have a good two months," he said. "We thought — I take the responsibility -- that Austin Hays was really gonna help us. And versus the Mets? Left-handed pitching, the right matchup. He gets hurt, he gets sick and he just wasn't the same player after that."
Whether or not it's Hays, the Phillies will need a right-handed-hitting complement to Marsh in either center field or left field. The position will depend on what happens with Rojas.
This is the second straight offseason Rojas is not being anointed the Phillies' center fielder. He will have to earn the job again, and the time spent this winter in Clearwater working through the Phillies' hitting plan should help.
"Our outfield, it's more uncertain than our infield because our infield's basically set at every single position, and catching and a lot of starting pitchers," Dombrowski said.
The Phillies could still look to get creative in reformatting their offense with a trade, but if they don't and only upgrade a couple of outfield spots, they will again be looking for improvement from players like Bryson Stott, Marsh and Alec Bohm. All three took big steps forward in 2023 but in 2024, the only one who continued to ascend was Bohm, who hit .295/.348/.482 in the first half and .251/.299/.382 in the second half.
Both Dombrowski and Thomson referred to Stott as a player who shouldn't be thinking 20-25 home runs and instead should be focused on grinding out at-bats, maintaining his plate selection and using the whole field. Stott dipped from .280 to .245.
"To me, the answer is not the missing piece, the answer is playing well at the right time," Dombrowski said.
"You really have to play well at the right time. I've been on a lot of really good clubs. I was with the club in Detroit that had three future Hall of Famers on it (Miguel Cabrera, Justin Verlander, Max Scherzer) and a lot of star players and won our division almost every year and we never won the World Series. It's hard to win. There's a lot of good clubs out there. You just have to be the club that's playing the best at the right time and maybe get a break or two here and there. That's what makes winning feel so good, because it's so hard.
"The Atlanta Braves dynasty, they won 12 divisions in a row and they won one World Series. We have the talent to win. We didn't play very well in the postseason this year. Some guys did, I don't want to say everybody didn't. You look at Zack Wheeler and say god, he couldn't have been much better than that.
"I read our players' comments. They know it. We just didn't play well. I don't think there's any secret formula. It just breaks my heart but I've gone through this. We went through it with Boston before we won a World Championship. And that's where you've got to be careful. In Boston, we won our division in 2016 and 2017 and got knocked out in the first round both times. And then we won the whole thing the next year. Sometimes you just play a little better, you get on a roll, you do the right things and sometimes the same players can do it for you."
There will be a new outfield arrangement and there will be a new look in the bullpen with at least one of Carlos Estevez or Jeff Hoffman moving on in free agency, but the 2025 Phillies will indeed rely on many of the same players.
"I do think it's a club capable of winning a world championship," Dombrowski said.
"I mean, the reality is, we have a lot of good players. I think we just have to be open-minded to exploring what's out there for us, talk to some clubs and see what ends up happening. That process hasn't started. Sometimes you trade good players for good players."